Paint It Green: The Climate Crisis & Your Immune System
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Introduction to Dr. Tanya Rogers, NASA engineer and CEO of The People's CO2
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Kara Wada, MD: Welcome back to this episode of the Becoming Immune Confident Podcast. It's Dr. Kara here, board certified in allergy, immunology, and lifestyle medicine. Also happen to be an autoimmune patient. And we love talking with guests who intersect with all these different things. And I am thrilled for you all to meet Dr. Tanya. Dr. Tanya Rogers is truly inspiring. She is a NASA engineer turned CEO of The People's CO2. And we are going to talk all things science, STEM, navigating that career path, sustainability, and all those things today. So I'm so excited to welcome you to the show. And would love to learn a little bit more about your story.
Dr. Tanya Rogers: Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Kara, for having me here. And you were saying all my favorite words, science, STEM, sustainability. You got a lot of the good highlights in there. I'm a NASA engineer. I've been there for 10 years nowwhich is a good feeling to say out loud. Yeah. About two years ago in parallel, I decided I didn't have enough on my plate, as people who tend to be overachievers do, and decided to start a company, The People's CO2.
And that was really driven by the concept of climate change, I would say. And really, what we focused on is, I wanted to give everybody the ability to do something. There's a lot of great things we can do in terms of reducing the amount of carbon we consume. We can run less water, we can turn our lights off, we can recycle.
But if I were to tell you right now, just reach into the air and grab a carbon molecule. Get rid of that carbon in the air, we're kind of, just as everyday people, we're kind of helpless. And I was like, well, maybe, maybe somebody should do something about that. Maybe we should come up with some sort of tool. So I put my thinking cap on 1 to 10 times. The first time anyone tries to do anything, at least in my experience, you fail or not fail, but you learn along the way, right? Usually the first idea at the gate isn't where you land. If it is, congratulations 'cause that is amazing.
And so we, we tossed around some ideas. I built a team and ultimately we landed on inventing this paint. And to the eye, it looks like normal paint, it feels like normal paint but it does a little more magic. It does some science. And when you put it on any surface. It captures carbon dioxide out of the air. And that's, that's where we're at today where we're getting this off the ground. We've got a Kickstarter that's running until May 20th. And so we're excited to kind of get this out with everybody's hands and play with it and see how it's received.
Kara Wada, MD: That's incredible.
The connection between climate change and immune health
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Kara Wada, MD: I want to kind of connect the dots maybe for those who are newer listeners and kind of wondering like, well, this is a podcast about the immune system. Why are we talking about climate change? Why are we talking about carbon? And the reality is that air pollution in particular increases effects on our immune system health.
We know with allergies, air pollution increases the the allergenicity or the potency of pollen and can increase our symptoms threefold. Air pollution has impacts on our skin health and is a main contributor to adult eczema. And these are just like a few of the ways that this is scratching the surface.
I actually am really excited and I should bring some more of this onto the show, but I help with a class with medical students who are really excited about how they can make an impact as physicians knowing that there are so many health implications that climate change has.
And so this is a really cool parallel and compliment to that because you're talking about ways to reverse this problem.
As you have, building a startup and starting a business, it takes incredible drive.
Balancing the demands of entrepreneurship with chronic illness
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Kara Wada, MD: And you also have been open about, have faced kind of your own health issues over time. How do you balance kind of those demands of entrepreneurship while also kind of keeping in mind your own wellbeing?
Dr. Tanya Rogers: Yeah, it's taken a while to even accept the word balance. I'll admit that's a place I got to a few years ago. My, my health journey started, I'd say I've been sick for about 15 years now. And it's a little frustrating in the sense that we don't really know what's going on. I've been to all the doctors, all the tests, all the scans. I know there are certain things that will trigger. I've got gastrointestinal disorder. I know there's certain things that will trigger it. So I can have some good days, some bad days.
And for me, where I've landed, the thing that helps is, and when I say this word, people kind of see it as defeats. And so I don't, I don't want anybody to interpret it as defeat, but acceptance helps me. Yeah. So acknowledging my condition not in the way that I'm saying, I'm not as good as somebody else. But just saying that it's there, and once I out loud admit that I've got something that might not be able to let me give 100 percent today.
And I've learned to become okay with that, because for a long time I've always just been go, go, go, you gotta do your best, and more than your best every day. And for me, that doesn't look like what it looks like for everybody else. And so the days where I'm not the greatest, I'm in the middle of a flare right now. I have to balance where I give my energy. I couldn't really do my morning routines this morning. If you look behind me, I've got a counter full of dishes, and I know I'll get to it when I'm feeling better, but not pushing myself and giving my body that rest and acceptance it deserves.
That's kind of where I've landed and Some days it's harder than others. There are times when I have to step back. For the company, I had to pause for about three months because I was just really sick and I needed to let my body reset. But ultimately, I know once I give my body that break, it's going to be in a better place.
I just got to give it the time to get there.
Kara Wada, MD: I know we, it's been some time, but one of the guests we've had on the show a couple of times Cheryl Crowe, she's an occupational therapist, she has rheumatoid arthritis, and she too has really found a ton of benefit in particular in specifically acceptance and commitment therapy. And so she's kind of talked about some similar concepts.
So we can link to those prior episodes that people, kind of want to learn a little bit more of of her experience with that as well. That, and I, I think you hit the nail on the head. It's like, it's realizing, this is the reality and accepting that and realizing we are 100 percent worthy with those things that make us us and and rolling with it.
Yeah.
The unexpected ways Dr. Rogers' health journey has impacted her leadership
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Kara Wada, MD: Have you found any unexpected ways that your health journey has has impacted your leadership?
Dr. Tanya Rogers: So I have actually. Something that's helped my journey in terms of setting expectations is communication. and that's hard because you don't always want to tell everybody you're sick. And it's even harder because if you've got what they call invisible illnesses, when you say out loud you're sick, they're like, "Well, you look great." or they just have some level of disbelief and don't understand how sick you are. And so over the years, I've learned to tell people, "Hey, I'm not gonna be able to give it my all today." Or, or just, communicate you want me to work on this project, I've got three other things, and my body just can't handle that.
And you don't have to go into full details. You don't have to give them your 15 year medical history if you don't want to. And most, most people are understanding, right? Versus if you just stop showing up to meetings, you don't respond to emails, you go off the grid, folks get worried about you, they don't know what's going on, and it tends to kind of ruin those relationships.
And so I found the same running the company and leadership, communicating, communicating clearly and frequent communication tends to get a better response from the people you're working with and keep things moving forward a little better.
Kara Wada, MD: I think that that's so applicable too, to like our home life. Like I've had to, and in, I'm still learning and evolving how to like ask for help when I need it and how to communicate like where I'm at with my husband. Like we've been in, in a partnership together for, oh gosh, like not quite 20 years, but we're getting close to that, that point.:
And yet this is still like a, an ongoing like, oh yeah, he doesn't, he can't read my mind. Like, kind of in, even in someone I'm, so close with, like, even they're like, there's this, "okay, yeah, I gotta, gotta let him know what's going on."
Dr. Tanya Rogers: Still working through the how to ask for help. So I'll tell people what's going on, but I won't say, "Okay, and now I need this." And it's so bad. I actually had surgery about two months ago. So my boyfriend came over and he took care of me through the recovery process for about a month. And I was so hesitant to ask for, he was trying his best. I couldn't even get out of bed. And I, just, 30 percent of the way in, I asked myself, what am I doing? This person cares about you. This person loves you. They want you to get better. They want to do these things for you.
You're not an inconvenience. It doesn't make them miserable, they wouldn't be here. Just, just accept that, all goes back to acceptance. And that's a hard thing to do because we, we feel like burdens and it's hard to get over that, that mental block.
Kara Wada, MD: I think that's extra true for those of us that are those overachievers too you know, We've always kind of held our hat on that. Like we can do it ourselves. Like, like independent women
Staying motivated through challenging work
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Kara Wada, MD: I think sometimes too, as we kind of segue into like the discussion on climate action, like, there is a similar overall feeling that sometimes comes about that we have with chronic illness and there's a sense of like helplessness of like, "Oh, like, what can we do?" It's just such, like, are we doomed?
Is it worth like putting in the effort? And how do you keep yourself and the public motivated through this important but challenging work.
Dr. Tanya Rogers: So this is going to sound kind of selfish. I am, I am selective and mindful about where I put my energy. And I would say I've spent a lot of time trying to convince people that climate change is real. Trying to convince people we should be doing something and I've realized most people have already made up their mind what they're gonna believe. No matter what facts you throw at them They think they've got the alternative truth. And so I kind of switched my mentality in terms, you know, how I motivate myself and others to the sense of almost and I don't wanna say I don't care what people think, but I've come to a place where if somebody doesn't believe in climate change.
I don't need their belief or disbelief to still do something about it. And so I motivate myself by acknowledging that. If somebody doesn't believe in it, if they don't want to take action, that's their choice. I wish the situation was otherwise, but I'm not going to spend all my energy trying to cross a dead bridge. I can go paint a surface, or I could use less materials, or I can be more mindful about the earth. With or without their belief and just hope that there's enough action around me that it's not going to matter for the people who don't believe.
Kara Wada, MD: So many parallels between, that and other aspects of life and going back to kind of this accept and move on and continue to making those next best steps forward in the work. And I think at some point too, we kind of have seen through other social movements that there is a tipping point where most people get on board and are doing something at some point in time.
Dr. Tanya Rogers: Yeah. And there are a lot of great social movements out there, a lot of great climate activists, a lot of great efforts where people are trying to bring this to light and get others to understand what's happening. And so I, I leave it in their hands and just acknowledge that as individuals, we only have so much energy, right? And I found for myself, if I try to do 20 things at once, I'm just not really good at one of them. I'm just kind of giving 10% to all of them. And so if I let the people out there being you know, really vocal, do what they're doing. That gives me the time to be working in parallel with, taking a different type of action while they're doing that.
Kara Wada, MD: Yeah. And really lean into your genius zone, which is developing and inventing these really cool solutions.
Dr. Tanya Rogers: Yeah, I've spent 10 years thinking about environment or working on environmental technologies, for space applications, for earth applications. And so that's, that's really, I think where I can contribute hopefully and be the most effective and it's where I'm happy. I'm excited about it. I'm enjoying it and we're going to see where it goes.
The long-term goals for The People's CO2
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Kara Wada, MD: What are your like long term, maybe even like pie in the sky goals for The People's CO2
Dr. Tanya Rogers: So our, our key thing, and I want a bumper sticker that says, I love surface area, because the more surfaces we have this paint on, the better. And it's true when I say this really is a citizen movement. This really is the people doing something about it. Because that's what we need to make this really have an impact.
And I would just love to drive down the road and just look at a light post and see, "oh, there's, there's The People's CO2 paint." Or somebody's fence has the paint. Just the more people we can get involved. I think the more surfaces we have this paint on, I, I would call that successful. I would be happy. And so even if I take a step back, if this starts a conversation where people start to realize I, as an individual, could do something, whether they use our paint or not, that's still successful to me.
When you start to believe in yourself and know that you've got the power to make a difference and to contribute to that change.
The power of starting small and making safer swaps
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Kara Wada, MD: And it's that power of starting small and seeing that build. I am just thinking of the parallels that some of the things we've tried to do in our household over the last few years. Initially, we're motivated out of what are some ways to decrease our exposure to substances that aren't great to our own health?
How can we maybe go from plastic to glass? How can we decrease, some of the endocrine disruptors and like our skincare, and personal products. But what I've realized along the way, and as I've continued to learn about the science in those areas is that often those switches that we're making that help our own health also are really beneficial for the health of the planet too.
Turns out our bodies tend to like things the planet likes too on the whole. For me, okay, now I have one more tool in my tool belt that we can add of "Okay, we can do some paint and that's gonna help."
And it, it expands that vision of safer swaps is kind of the terminology I've like grabbed onto. But it's not only safer for ourselves, but it's better for the planet, which is also healthy for our, our bodies too.
Dr. Tanya Rogers: I like, I like that way of thinking that by taking care of ourselves we're also taking care of the planet and vice versa, because it's true, we are very linked to the earth around us, to the water we drink, to the air that we breathe, to the things that we consume, there's a direct correlation between how our body reacts to and how the planet reacts to us.
And, and so the small thing I think really is acknowledging that and just understanding you can start to make that shift. It's challenging because at least in American culture, our society is built around instant gratification, right? It's easier to grab a paper towel, and throw it away than to use a reusable one and go through the process of washing it. It's easier to pick up, take out, and already made containers. And I get it. I've done that too because our days are busy and we pick where we choose our energy. And society, at least in our culture, doesn't build in balance and give us the leniency to kind of move a little slower as much as we like.
And so I think trying to change that and being more mindful if you can about giving up a little bit of that instant gratification. And ultimately you'll start to see it's not going to make that big of a difference in your life. And certainly trying to get towards that is what we're pushing a little bit into as well.
The importance of collective action and finding your genius zone
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Kara Wada, MD: As you think back maybe to the beginnings of your interest in making a difference. in the environment, in climate, what were some of those first steps that you took to try to make a difference?
Dr. Tanya Rogers: Yeah. So this actually started because a friend showed up in my house with a rock. Actually, he had a rock and there was a small little tree growing out of it. And he told me, "I saw this and thought of you." I was like, "Well, that's really sweet." And he's like, by the way, while we're here talking about earth things, there's this challenge. Not the time, there is this. I'm forgetting the name of the competition. Some big hundred million dollar challenge, and it was big and bold, solve climate change and you'll get all the money in the world. And I was less interested in that part, but I like the idea that people were getting on board with this.
And so I was like, "Oh no, I'm too busy." And like every overachiever the next day, I was like, "I'm doing it." So I, I decided I'm going to enter this challenge with no plan in mind. And before I even had an idea, actually, I thought about the people I was going to recruit to be around me. Especially as somebody who goes through health issues, I really lean on my network and my support.
That's something I've kind of given myself grace to do over the years. And I apply this to my professional life as well. And so I thought about who's going to help me make this successful? Who's got the skills that I don't have? How can we complement each other? Who do I bring in? and so I started there.
I reached out to two friends because one is a proper entrepreneur and as a scientist, I've got, I've got none of that. And one of them, one of them is a scientist, but he thinks different than me. And we've worked on projects before. And so we challenge each other in good ways. It's, it's friendly. So I, I bring them on board and they go, what are we doing?
And I totally forgot about that part. Right. So, and so we, we started thinking. If you're going to do something, you should first understand what's already being done about it. What's working in that area and what's not. And so I had a little bit of background on carbon capture and I really dug into the literature and understanding what's happening. And I saw all these policies being developed or in place. And I saw these industrial solutions trying to come online. And we started to realize there wasn't really anything in terms of carbon capture at the individual level.
And that, that was our 'aha' moment. That's when we realized, that's it. That's when we need to do something.
We just gotta, we gotta figure out what that looks like. And that's really where we started. Coming to that realization of, there's something big missing here, and we should do all we can to try to solve that.
Kara Wada, MD: Awesome. I'm just always amazed by the collective action. And I think on your website, you have that Margaret Mead quote, that I cannot like remember fully at this moment, but that to not underestimate the power of people who really have a passion behind a particular cause.
Dr. Tanya Rogers: Yeah, and I always butcher the quote, it's Margaret Mead, and she, she says something, yeah, don't underestimate that a small group of citizens can change the world because indeed that's all that ever has and we, we really abide by that. It, it starts with a small handful of people and then it builds to a bigger handful and you become this tight knit group of people who want to achieve the same thing and that's, that's more powerful than people give it credit for.
Kara Wada, MD: There's a book that I read not that long ago and called Who Not How. And it really, the whole premise of the book, it's a business geared and minded book, but the premise of the book is really, exactly what you just described, finding out, and understanding and knowing what your areas of strength are, and then finding those folks that complement your learning curves, that you don't have to learn and be an expert in everything.
You find those experts and you have them help you know, elevate overall that collective action. And I've found, obviously it's helpful from the business side of things and the social movement side of things, but also I think has been really helpful as I think back on like experiences in this space of like chronic illness too and you were describing that as well, learning how to have your partner help you in, in the best ways that they're able to accepting that help, building the medical team.
Dr. Tanya Rogers: Yeah, there's, there's something to surrounding yourself with people who compliment you, right? Or people that can help you grow, or people who give you the space to kind of breathe because they're occupying the areas that you don't really want to be in or that aren't your strongest and they enjoy. I think, I think it's a real, it's, it's symbiotic. It's a mutual relationship. I think it's a really beautiful thing.
How to connect with Dr. Rogers and support her work
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Kara Wada, MD: This has been lovely. I would love to know and so we can share with all the listeners, cause I'm sure they want to know too where they can connect with you, how they can find information on buying paint how they can support your work and follow and, and be a part of this movement.
Dr. Tanya Rogers: We would love to have anybody who wants to be in this. You can reach me personally and my company and all People's CO2 social media. So we're on Instagram, Facebook, I think Twitter. Our interns do a wonderful time of running in and we pop in there as well. If you want to get your hands on the paint, we actually just launched it into the public.
And you can reach out to us also through our website, thepeoplesco2. com. We have got our feet all over the internet. So there are lots of ways to say hi or to just ask us, how can you become a part of it?
Kara Wada, MD: It's incredible.
Dr. Rogers' perspective on becoming immune confident
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Kara Wada, MD: And we've been trying to remember we being me totally on me to ask our guests, the name of the podcast is Becoming Immune Confident. And this encompasses kind of both physical health and resilience in the face of challenges, but I would love to kind of hear what that means, what that phrase becoming immune confident means or how it resonates with you.
Dr. Tanya Rogers: And I keep repeating the word acceptance, but for me, that's really giving me the strength to, to. feel good about myself. Maybe not physically on the days where it's just not working, but acceptance has let me acknowledge who I am, and that's not in a bad light, it's let me acknowledge what I'm capable of, and I'm pretty proud of myself, what I've been able to achieve given my condition. And so once I accepted, "Hey, I got here despite all the things that I went through," and yes, it took a little longer than I wanted and the path was a little more shaky than I wanted, but I've got that confidence because I take the time to accept everything and look back on, what it's, what it's really come from. And so it all boils down again to acceptance for me.
Kara Wada, MD: Thank you so much, Dr. Tanya. This has been wonderful and I am just so excited to continue to follow your work. I need to hop over to the Kickstarter and think about where we have some surface area to cover and start capturing that carbon.
Dr. Tanya Rogers: We, this was, I've enjoyed talking and I'm excited for you to be part of the journey for everybody else to be a part of journey and looking forward to see what we all do together.
Kara Wada, MD: Awesome. Thank you so much. Take care.
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