Cooking with Foraged Food: How to Find Ingredients In The Wild
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Kara Wada, MD: Welcome back, everyone. Dr. Kara here and on this week's episode of the Becoming Immune Confident podcast, I have a treat for y'all. I have been following Chef Lorenzo for, oh, goodness, over a year now. I am always entertained and I am learning so much. And I know you all are going to learn so much from this conversation.
Lorenzo's journey: From culinary school to regenerative farming and private cheffing.
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Kara Wada, MD: Lorenzo Tavani is a chef. He's also a forager, a gardener, a video creator, and an all around health nut. After culinary school, he has worked jobs throughout the food system, including in professional restaurants and at a regenerative family farm. He now hosts cooking courses and works as a private chef in Columbus, Ohio. He creates online cooking courses and he is just a wealth of information, has amazing energy, and I'm so excited to introduce you all to him. Lorenzo, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to sit down and talk with us. And we would love to hear more about your story.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Of course, yeah, thank you so much for having me on. It's been fun to interact with you over the last year, going back and forth and cool to finally be face to face, at least as close to face to face gets.
Kara Wada, MD: We're in same city.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah, you know, I,
Kara Wada, MD: We're on our computers.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Right. Yeah, well, we'll definitely have to make plans to meet in person. So, as far as my story goes, you know, I grew up with lots of outdoor vacations and a family who garden and cooked a lot of homemade food, but was never really, you know, you're never really, you're just gaining through osmosis as a child. Throughout high school, I was very creative and played music and got a couple restaurant jobs later in high school. And that kind of led me into going the culinary route in college. I truthfully didn't have a whole lot of solid plans for what I wanted to do in college.
I knew I needed to go and I was working in a restaurant, so it was the best bet for what I was doing then. Working through restaurants was really difficult. I was simultaneously trying to live that kind of healthy life. Living an active lifestyle, doing a lot of gym, but then also immersed in the bar culture and partying scene that restaurants tend to come with.
It was really hard to live that healthy life. I was like living two contradictory lives and I had a couple activity based injuries that caused some knee surgeries to need to happen and that kicked me out of restaurants. I started a part time job at a gym and started working on my personal training certification. So I became a certified personal trainer. And once my knees were healed up, I was working kind of in a restaurant doing some personal training on the side. And, really that's when the health and the nutrition and everything started to snowball for me. When I realized everything in our bodies were all connected and synergistic, I was like, "Oh, this food is really important as well."
So the food and where our food comes from kind of snowballed into regenerative agriculture and how the food system works. I worked for a couple of years at a small family farm where I was milking cows, feeding pigs, and collecting tons and tons of eggs on a daily basis. I work for the better part of a year at a slaughterhouse, kind of really deep in the food system, getting a good overlook of how our food comes to be.
COVID happened and I was laid off and I took the private cheffing I was doing on the side a little more seriously and that's just kind of snowballed into me trying to expose more people to how their food is grown, where it comes from, and why that all matters. And that's kind of culminated into these community based food events that are either foraging focused or just local food focused where small food producers can come together and show off their awesome products, highlighting the wild foods around us and enjoying our meals outside and getting outdoors and into nature.
What is foraging? Lorenzo explains the benefits of wild foods and how he incorporated it into his cooking.
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Kara Wada, MD: It's amazing. And I would love to hear, so how did you get involved in foraging? Kind of specific, like, where did that come in? And what is it? 'Cause a lot of listeners may not know what that is.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah, totally. So, foraging is simply navigating your landscape and looking for edible or somewhat useful plants and fungi that, you know, either could become a food source or a source of medicine. I incorporate tons of wild foods and ingredients into the cuisine that I use in my dinners. And from a food standpoint, all of the cultivated foods that we have at the grocery store, all originated from some wild relative to that plant. So the foods that we eat at the grocery are just hybridized versions of the wild plants that grow out in nature. And when harvesting those wild plants, the nutrition and the mineral density in those foods are much higher because of their natural environments and their more native kind of growing.
Foraging happened for me in 2020-ish, kind of end of mid 2019 and then foraging. And then when I was laid off during COVID, it really just gave me a ton of time to be out there learning. I think it just came with understanding where my food came from, seeing people pulling mass amounts of food, growing on trees in urban areas, or mushrooms out in the woods that I'd only really seen in like restaurant situations, and just like this mass abundance of food that grows around us really got me interested. And I just got out, started spending time, reading books, watching videos and recognizing some stuff that I saw and trying it. And, it's really just snowballed from there. And I'm trying to learn as much as I can.
Kara Wada, MD: I think back to my childhood and a couple little snapshots come to mind of these little hints of, you know, foraging. I remember my mom mentioning this idea that dandelions actually like were something that people ate sometimes. As a really young kid, I was like, "What?" And then she immediately told me not to eat them because likely the ones that I was around had been sprayed. And so that was, you know, not a good idea. And then my dad is very much an outdoorsman. He has been, you know, since he was really young, kind of working on his grandparents farm on the summers. And then also, learning how to hunt and fish. And so that has kind of had this thread. But every spring he would be really excited to go out looking for morel mushrooms. And so I know we're coming kind of up on that season, but these are like these little hints. But what the reality is for most, you know, vast, vast, vast majority of human history, these weren't just little hints or threads. This is how we survived.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah, even today in a lot of European cultures, South American cultures, there's a lot of foraging that still happens. It may not be the main part of their diet, but in each season, they might go do blueberries in this time of the year when the blueberries are ripe and collect all the blueberries and freeze them for the year or make jams and jellies. And, yeah.
There's a lot of tradition around it. I think, a lot of wild food can take a lot of processing, and it can take a lot of time, and that can be kind of a good bonding moment for families to, you know, go out, get outside, collect food, bring it back as a collective, process it all together, turn it into whatever it is they're eating, and kind of bond over that moment.
The benefits of connecting with nature: How being outside can improve both our mental and immune health.
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Chef Lorenzo Tavani: It can be a special part of our lives. It's been a special part of people's lives even today. And then, you know, talk about before agriculture, humans living on the landscape were really just tending to wild plants and, you know, more like a food forest kind of situation where they were working with the already available food sources and tending to them in a way that would benefit them, whether it's pruning for higher fruit yield or burning, doing controlled burns to open up more space in the understory. It's pretty amazing. Humans had a really large role on the landscape and we've definitely taken a step back from being involved in nature and the stuff around us. And part of giving back and healing the earth is getting a better understanding of it and interacting with it, right? You're never going to heal something that you're not actively immersed in or being intentional about.
Kara Wada, MD: Yeah. And we know not only is that healing for the earth, but it's also really beneficial for our own health when it comes to certainly our mental health, but also our immune system health being exposed to, you know, the soil and different microbes and things out in nature really helps shift our immune system back in to a better balance. That being said, for those who already have allergies or other things, you know, talk with your docs to come up with a good plan to keep you comfortable, but overall, can be really helpful.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah, absolutely. I think when I'm stressed, a good hike helps. You know, there's really something to being in that natural environment away from the man made structures. Just getting into the woods and right in a lot of Eastern medicine, they talk about forest bathing and all the benefits of just literally just going on a walk in the woods, nothing more. You don't have to run, you don't have to do pushups. Like just being out there is benefiting us so much, right? So I like to say that in my classes, it's like, even if you come home empty handed or you don't know any of these plants your first ten times going out to the woods, you are still benefiting from being out here. You're spending time in an environment that humans have evolved in for thousands of years and it's no coincidence that it feels so good to be out in nature and go on a walk. It's like such an important part of being a human.
Practical tips for getting started with foraging: Starting with intentional walks in your neighborhood, recognizing plants in different seasons, and using resources.
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Kara Wada, MD: And yet we spend like 90 to 95% of our time indoors. What tips might you give someone who is like looking to start making some of those changes? Is there anything that kind of, know, you've seen other people do or maybe you found helpful yourself?
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, just being intentional about getting outside, whether it's a couple of small 15 minute walks on a really busy day. I think in the busyness of life, it's really easy to get carried away with other things, but if you can just be really intentional about getting outside and just even a five to 10 minute walk makes so much of a difference for me, walking around my neighborhood. And then, you know, if you want to get into the more like recognizing plants and getting more interested or in tune with your environment, just taking the same route and looking for a plant and using resources, whether it's online or a field guide, we can talk about good resources and just visiting that spot time and time again, seeing that plant in its different seasons.
That way you can recognize that pattern in your eyes, get your reps in and you're outside, you're getting exercise, you're being in the open air. You're also like getting in tune and using your brain to recognize natural patterns in your environment. That's something I like to do is take the same loop and kind of check on my plant friends along the loop and see their different stages throughout the season. And that's when you really start learning. You know, you're learning your plants, learning your environment, and then also, you know, getting that win-win of getting your walk and your steps in for the day as well.
Kara Wada, MD: Absolutely. I think one thing that's helped our family, we have been incredibly fortunate where our kiddos have done like their daycare, preschool, they have really invested in nature education for the kiddos. And so at least once a week they have Nature Jared who comes in, who I know we've talked about introducing you two. But that really has instilled this joy and this love of nature in them. And seeing that excitement has been contagious for my husband and I of like, "Oh, yeah, let's get outside." Let's, you know. Earlier this week, when it was so nice out, they really wanted to go for a bike ride, you know, before bedtime. And so, sometimes just listening to those little polls, whether, you know, wherever they come from can can be really helpful and let the little people lead.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah. We got to do better at channeling our inner child, right? It's like, channel just 10% of that child energy. It's so important for adults to keep playing, interacting, having fun, climb a freaking tree, you know? You're never too old, you know. You're never too old to climb a tree.
Kara Wada, MD: You know, I think now that you mentioned that, I think that is what that energy that I think you bring to your social media content is just that joy and that it is kind of this, you know, reminiscent of, you know, obviously you're an adult and you're teaching us adulting things, but there is this just joy that you can tell that you really love what you're doing. And you're very passionate about that, it really helps you learn and want to keep tuning in to listen. So thank you for bringing that and for bringing that to all of us.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah, I mean, hey. Like I, definitely goofy, turning it on for Instagram too, right? You got turning it up a little bit for the gram and yeah, it's fun for me. I like being a goofball. I think like if I can use that. You know, I was the class clown in school. Some teachers loved me, you know, they loved me and I was able to get the classes like totally off track with the goofiness. So now I like to say that like, I'm using my powers in a more constructive way, now that I've matured more.
Kara Wada, MD: Probably not super surprising that I was a kiddo getting in trouble for talking a lot. I was very studious nerdy, but also definitely a chatty. That's how I got a detention at one point.
Shopping for mindful food: Lorenzo's advice on supporting local food economies, understanding labels, and becoming an educated buyer.
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Kara Wada, MD: When people are looking to try to eat in a way that is more mindful of the earth and the environment, what are some suggestions of ways that they might be able to kind of slowly make those, you know, or even radically kind of make those changes?
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah, that's a great question. I think definitely looking to your local food economy. I know that's easier said than done. In certain situations, there are definitely parts of the United States that are a little more privileged in that way, whether agriculturally or just socioeconomically. But, really tapping into that local economy, I think it's easier to do, you know, Google searching your local farmers markets. And, you know, going to places to where you can shop that in a situation where you can directly buy from that person, right? I think, using labels as a guide is okay, but in the world today, what labels can mean the ultimate form of trust is finding the person that's really raising that animal or producing that food product.
And, you know, actionable stuff for listeners is spending time at farmer's markets and interacting with the people behind the booths, asking questions. Truthfully, some of this is just some education that we have to do ourselves. You know, finding books, a good book is, The Third Plate by Dan Barber. Joel Salatin is a great author. Just some books that kind of give you light on the food system and you know, what some labels could mean because there's a lot of uneducated people. It's nobody's fault. I think it's just a result of our busy society. But just learning and becoming a more educated buyer is really, I think, the next step towards improving our health and buying more intentionally. I think that starts, one, at farmer's markets, but just self education of reading some books that pertain to our food system. You know, maybe visiting a farm, Google searching farms that have farm tours in your local area. Just trying to find those people that are raising it, growing it, baking it. Those are the people that we can trust, the people that we can ask questions to, the people that will be honest. You know, that's where that good local high energy food comes from.
Decoding food labels: Lorenzo breaks down what organic labels truly mean, and why it's important to be mindful of misleading claims.
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Kara Wada, MD: One of the things I think that we have in common in our own ways and in our own kind of areas is talking about how things are not as black and white as a lot of the sound bites, you know, would suggest and that there's so much in that gray area, the nuance. And so maybe we can, if you're okay with dig in a little bit, kind of the food label. Like, what do some of these things really mean? And does that translate like to, you know, how does that translate to our shopping? So if something says organic, for instance, like,
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah. Yeah. The organic label is an interesting one. I'd say overall, it's a good thing to have organic certification. If you want to talk about an animal that has the organic label on it, all that organic label pertains to is the feed that the animal is eating. So that animal can be living in the same low quality conditions, living environment and just fed a organic pellet and be labeled as organic. So I think, you know, a lot of people go by the organic chicken thinking that that chicken probably lived a healthier, happier life. Not necessarily the case. That label is really just pertaining to the diet that it ate. Pork, a good example is vegetarian fed. Pigs are omnivores. So, you know, that pig was not eating the species specific diet for the entirety of its life. And they use that vegetarian fed label as if it's like a selling point. You're like, "Oh, that sounds good. Veggies." Like, you know, "That's a veggie fed pig. That's a healthy pig." But in reality, pigs eat rats. Pigs eat snakes. Pigs, you know, pigs eat, um,
Kara Wada, MD: They eat all the stuff.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah. Pigs will eat anything. And vegetables, you know, vegetables are great. It's like buying organic as best you can, I think is a great thing. There's a good little tip for people like The Dirty Dozen and the Clean Fifteen list that they put out every year of, you know, foods that are generally safer and less high amounts of glyphosate and sprays and pesticides and such. So that's always a good resource to look at when wanting to figure out what you can compromise on buying conventional versus organic. But you know, the organic label is, I think it's good to have the certification. It's good for some clarity, but just because it says organic doesn't necessarily mean it's good.
Kara Wada, MD: I read that Joel Salatin book, "Folks, This Ain't Normal" at your recommendation. You had, I think, posted it on your stories or something. And, he's a farmer in the, I think, Virginia, rural Virginia, if I'm not mistaken, and really kind of shed some light on, you know, like vegetarian fried chickens, like chickens should be eating bugs. They should have access to the ground. Like that's what they're associated, you know, and some of these things that we've talked about it a little bit more on older episodes of the podcast. But this greenwashing that comes on especially with like skincare products and stuff, the same sorts of things are happening in our food system too, that they know that those labels sell and yet, if it's the difference between eating an apple or not eating an apple, because it's organic or not, just eat the apple. Like, don't go buy some organic, like, cold fish instead.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, totally. You know, there's a diminishing return. You know, nobody's a bad person because they don't buy organic, right? Like if you're eating conventional produce over processed bagged food, that is way better, right? So it's just buying the best within your means. Buy the most expensive whole real food that you can afford and that is the best that you can do, right? Like all we can all do is the best we can do with what we're buying. Some people can't afford all organic. That's okay. But the whole real conventional produce is much better than the alternative processed bagged junk foods.
Kara Wada, MD: And it's okay, too, that if your time, energy, health requires you to get some stuff that's frozen or, you know, a lot of times I want frozen during peak season, too, to kind of add that little disclaimer.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: I'm always recommending frozen vegetables for people, you know? It's like a bag of frozen vegetables is such an easy thing to get veggies as a side on a busy weekday and whatnot. And you're totally right about the freezing. It's usually more nutrient dense than a vegetable that's been on the shelves, like sitting around for who knows how long.
Kara Wada, MD: Sad little limb zucchini or, uh, yeah, lettuce or something.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Exactly.
Batch cooking and meal prepping: Making healthy eating accessible and sustainable through bulk prepping, smart storage techniques, and freezing.
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Kara Wada, MD: Um, let's talk a little bit more about kind of some of those, you know, one of the things that you post often about too, is meal prepping or kind of batch cooking. I'd love for you to share just a little bit about how that weaves in. Kind of as a segue from, you know, when things are in season.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah. Yeah, totally. You know, so I think healthy eating and cooking at home gets a wrap of being inaccessible, too time consuming, maybe boring, you know, healthy food not being great. But the truth is we're all just not great cooks. The average person is just like not great at making their food taste good or have a very efficient time in the kitchen because they don't do it very often. So, you know, I think the one thing that we can all do better is just spending a little more time in the kitchen and some really good practical techniques, or like efficiencies to add into your meal prepping is just bulk prepping and making more than what you need in the moment.
I think a lot of people get caught up in the daily having to cook, and they end up cooking enough for that day, and then they're in the same situation tomorrow, and having to kind of reinvent the wheel every single day. Whereas, you know, for instance, you could cook six or seven pounds of pork shoulder at the beginning of a week and use that in so many different ways throughout that week. Whether it's pork carnitas, or you wanna do enchiladas or you do some of the pork, pulled pork like barbecue style with some risk of potatoes. Freezing some of that pulled pork away, so it's like an easy meal that you can pull out at a later date. Really incorporating some of these smart storage techniques are how we become more efficient in the kitchen.
Saving ourselves time, making healthy eating more sustainable and realistic. 'Cause like, it's true. Even me, I'm the guy that cooks and I have a hard time keeping food constantly in the fridge because I'm busy doing stuff all day and these little freezing tips and making extra and, you know, making large batches of stir fry sauce so you don't have to make stir fry sauce every time. It's these simple little efficiencies that can really make the whole thing more enjoyable. And you know, people probably assume me as a chef I'm eating like fancy stuff all the time.
Sometimes my meal is just like, sometimes we just have sloppy joes with a little side salad, you know? But you can better believe that I made four times the amount of sloppy joes that we needed. A bunch got frozen, we eat some for three days. So now I have sloppy joes that I can pull out weeks the future to really just like save myself time. So, in my opinion, I don't think we should ever be cooking without thinking about some of the element being made and made bulk and save for our future self. I think that's the only way to make the healthy home cooking efficient and sustainable.
Kara Wada, MD: That has been really key for our family, I know, like over the last few years. And is especially helpful when illnesses hit or my Sjogren's flares up or, you know, work gets busy. Like, then you have kind of these fallbacks that are really helpful to kind of tide you over. And it is that yummy, you know, food that was cooked with love. Sometimes even, like, literally my five year old will literally blow kisses into the soup. And I will say as a mom, like, doing less dishes, hallelujah. Like, if you're batch or bulk cooking, you're not making that much more mess at all and it's less cleanup. Hallelujah.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Cooking for a week, you know, cooking three times the size of a recipe versus cooking a one time batch, you know, if you scale it up three times, it's really not going to take you much more time, especially if it's like chilies and stews. It's like, never make enough chili for one day and you know, freeze it into jars. And I think what a mistake people make is they make a pot of chili and then they eat chili for seven days straight. You don't have to do that. You have a freezer. Freeze half of it. Don't eat chili for another month. And then when you guys are not sick of chili anymore, you can pull those jars out and you can have your chili that's already made.
Kara Wada, MD: Yeah. Or like, I had an odd amount a little while ago where it wasn't quite enough to feed the whole family, you know, for like a bowl of chili type meal. So we put it on baked potatoes and had like chili potatoes, with that little, know, kind of the one mason jar versus the two we would've needed for chili dinner.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: That's a great idea. Yeah. I just pulled out a jar of pork carnitas and it's like, exactly. There's so many different ways I could use it. We could have pork carnita tacos. I could make enchiladas. I could crisp it up and put it on top of a baked potato like you did. I could do it in a breakfast hash with a couple eggs and some potatoes for, you know, tomorrow's breakfast.
Like it's so many different options. And those ideas might not come to the average cook, but try it. But just cooking more often will make you a better cook and it'll make it more enjoyable. And it is like maybe the single most Important thing that we can control in our everyday lives is the food going in our body.
Kara Wada, MD: And, I will just throw out there, even for those of us that are cooking often, sometimes we will have missteps, and that is okay. One of the things I learned recently, and I think I maybe already shared it on the podcast, but I'm gonna share it again. Fail is a first attempt in learning. So it's not really fail. Yeah, I like that a lot.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: That's good. Yeah. Anytime you start doing anything, you're going to suck at it for a while, you know? Until you don't suck anymore. Like my videos sucked when I first started making them. The food, my food wasn't the best food. It wasn't that great when I first started doing it, you know?
Kara Wada, MD: Yeah. One of the things that I think, you know, going back, and then I know that we both have to wrap things up, but learning some of those fundamentals like salt, acid, fat, heat, you know, kind of those elements, those are those tools in your tool belt along with learning different techniques and things that really is what you're kind of teaching folks how to use too, right?
The fundamentals of cooking: Using ingredients as roles, understanding salt, acid, fat, and heat, and cooking intuitively.
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Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yup. Yeah. Thinking about ingredients as roles that need filled to get to your desired outcome, right? And the recipe is just like, It's a map with a bunch of different directions that you can take. And those ingredients, you know, you have a recipe with, let's say you have a sweetener in there. Well, you could use granulated sugar, but you could also use maple syrup, you could use honey, you could use agave, and being able to understand the role that each ingredient plays in a recipe will give you that ability to kind of cook more intuitively and understand, you know, what you could sub in there to get you to a very close desired outcome, or, you know, close to that original recipe.
A lot of what I'm working on with the coaching is these kind of recipe formulas where it's exactly that each ingredient is categorized into the role. And then at the bottom of each formula, there are different ingredients that could fill that role, common ingredients that people would have. So it kind of gives you that permission to flex and cook more intuitively and that's where you learn, you know? And then eventually you don't need it. It's like, well, I've made sloppy Joes a hundred different ways with a hundred different ingredients. And I've gotten to a place that I like. And, it is, it's just cooking, tasting your food, trying it and learning and, you know, being intentional with how those ingredients work together.
Where to find Lorenzo: Follow him on Instagram (@lorenzo__cooks) and visit his website (lorenzocooks.com) to learn more about his classes and events.
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Kara Wada, MD: Where can people find you? Because I think everyone's going to want to go find you and follow you on Instagram and check out your website and sign up for a class.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: lorenzocooks.com is the website. And on Instagram it is lorenzo__cooks. So sadly I check every now and then to see if one underscore Lorenzo one underscore cooks is taken, um, but for now we have two underscores in between. Just it is what it is.
Kara Wada, MD: We will link to both of those in the show notes and I think you have some. Are your foraging classes that are coming up, are those already filled? Or do you have a couple spots left?
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Most them are filled.
Kara Wada, MD: Okay.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Most of them are filled. April 20th. I have a couple spots left and then I'll be releasing another date, hopefully in March, a couple more in April and then May, June, July, and through the rest of the year we'll have classes. So just keep an eye out, lorenzocooks.com. That's where all the classes and all the contacting info is and I'll update on socials and all that kind of good stuff.
Kara Wada, MD: Well, I told you I'm going to try to get our allergy cohort together so we can go learn a little and spend more time in our environment until we get our weed walk up and running again, too.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Yeah, I would love that. Totally. I'd love to have you guys.
Kara Wada, MD: Well, thank you so much. This has been such a fun conversation and I hope the first of just many to come. Go follow Lorenzo here in Columbus. I know a lot of our listeners are and watchers are. Go sign up for a class or work with him virtually and thank you.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Thank you. Totally.
Kara Wada, MD: High five and happy cooking.
Chef Lorenzo Tavani: Happy cooking!
Kara Wada, MD: Take care.
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Kara Wada, MD: If you are loving this mix of self discovery and science found here on the Becoming Immune Confident Podcast, I'd love to invite you to sign up for my email list. Hop over to drkarawada.com and hit subscribe to ensure you don't miss out on any insights into new immune system science or how we can harness healing through our daily habits. Hey there, amazing listeners. Before we wrap up today's episode, I want to take a quick moment to ask for your support. If you're enjoying the content of the Becoming Immune Confident Podcast, we're bringing you week after week, there's a simple, but incredibly impactful way you can show your appreciation.
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